Funding Reform

[MaryHM]

You can't. You don't. Because no one is going to increase their cost of doing business without trying to recoop it. That's why it's called business and not charity. That's why we need a level playing field, so net caught can finally not be the bastard child of the industry.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

To all replying to my comments,

If you are really working to reform this industry, what do you think should be the price to be paid to a collector in the PI for a net caught Coral Beauty?


Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Pay me 6 figures and I'll gladly work 12-14 hour days. I could use the money...and the rest!!

:lol: :wink:

i feel your pain :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

wrong- just take a look at the big outcry on the main forums on the boards-what percentage of posts started by hobbyists even mention cyanide?

now i know you've never ever ever ever worked a day in the retail pet industry

better than 80% of all animal owners do so incompetently-and the figure is higher for 'aquarists'

the percentage of animal owners i've met since starting in retail around '77, that actually bothered to properly educate themselves about the creatures they 'keep' is infinitesimally tiny

just the use of the word 'own' when people refer to their pets should speak volumes to you

people will pay, even after 'cutting corners' thousands on a reef tank/fo tank, but will beeyotch and moan and whine over $10-20 extra for the animals they're shelling out the big bucks for to care for them

come on!

screw the hobbyists-

Vitz,

I just got done reading a bunch of your recent posts. Some of them are repeated above. Do you see a trand in them? I do.

You loath hobbyists.

You need to get out of retail if you hate us all (or 80% of us) so much. Remember - no one gets into the hobby to kill animals.

Sometimes I wish the toilet wouldn't back up. :roll:

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

Heres how you get money back to the diver.

On the left, prices for all that goes with netting, for a year
On the right, prices of cyanide for a year

All figures supplied by the divers themselves, who better to ask, then the consumers of such product.

Please note the 35x notation on the bottom of the cyanide colomn, that represents cyanide cost of operation, to be 35 times higher then nets.

 

[Anonymous]

wrong- just take a look at the big outcry on the main forums on the boards-what percentage of posts started by hobbyists even mention cyanide?

now i know you've never ever ever ever worked a day in the retail pet industry

better than 80% of all animal owners do so incompetently-and the figure is higher for 'aquarists'

the percentage of animal owners i've met since starting in retail around '77, that actually bothered to properly educate themselves about the creatures they 'keep' is infinitesimally tiny

just the use of the word 'own' when people refer to their pets should speak volumes to you

people will pay, even after 'cutting corners' thousands on a reef tank/fo tank, but will beeyotch and moan and whine over $10-20 extra for the animals they're shelling out the big bucks for to care for them

come on!

screw the hobbyists-

Vitz,

I just got done reading a bunch of your recent posts. Some of them are repeated above. Do you see a trand in them? I do.

You loath hobbyists.

You need to get out of retail if you hate us all (or 80% of us) so much. Remember - no one gets into the hobby to kill animals.

Sometimes I wish the toilet wouldn't back up. :roll:

-Lee

Lee

you misread things all too easily

i spend at least 4-5 hrs/day trying to educate and help hobbyists understand what they're doing- and how to do it better, and more easily-both for them, and their 'charges'

those that are willing are hobbyists-many folks that have aquariums are 'fishkeepers'

ther's a very important distinction there

i try to turn fishkeepers into hobbyists :wink:

being a hobbyist is not unlike being a proffesional- it's a matter of attitude, and perception

i'm not a hobbyist because i have some tanks in my apt, and i'm not a proffesional because i get paid

i'm a hobbyist because i have an interest and care about this thing i do to enjoy my time, and i'm a proffesional because of the standards i have for the level and value of my work that someone is paying me for

and i'm not that fond of people in general- most tend to let their ego encourage their own ignorance and stupidity

don't let my observations of reality cloud your judgement of how i percieve real hobbyists-they're just observations-which i'm sure most folks who work in retail, here will attest to and back up

most animal 'owners'(do you get that point yet?,- i'll clarify, just a wee bit- i don't look at my dog as 'property'i CANNOT 'own' him- i'm his caretaker)

mebbe it's a cultural thing that people, for the most part, are taught and brainwashed from the get go that the universe revolves around their own existence

some of us are lucky enough to be able to see outside of that box, through independent thinking

i think those that do can only really have pity for those that don't


btw- are any of those quotes of mine you took incorrect, in your observation? :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

What "should" they be paid?
You ask what should they be paid?
You mean you don't get what you negotiate in life but what you deserve?
They deserve double! They won't get it thru the PTFEA but they do deserve it. And what should a clown trigger diver get for a two inch 120" deep clown trigger? He should get double again!
His fellow divers however and the quantities they are bringing to Manila have some effect on the pricing.
If they were united and controlled the supply and worked together they could change it. There . What a simple idea. An idea worth nothing as are most ideas with nothing behind them but good intentions.
If I were in charge of a MACs training programs, [or any other] I'd already have this clown trigger cooperative, in place. I'd train and knit together the 10 basic villages that produce the worlds small clown trigger supply into a cooperative union, elect a common bargain/negociator and dictate terms to the PTFEA!
I had such a plan in motion once. But it was shot down by the NGO masters I worked for at the time.
Goodness folks...its not what you deserve, its what you negotiate...politically, tactically and with a united front. A front forged thru mutual experience, respect and struggle together. As the only white boy thats ever trained in clown trigger areas, I can assure you that the empowering of divers and building economic capacity and negotiating clout can be done. As usual however, the effort to do this is only as good as the team behind it.
The search for a fishermans oriented program and NGO to honestly administer it is the challenge. The PTFEA will not like this, so of course MACs out because of their alliance with them. To fight for the villagers position makes you friends with only the poor. [ and some Canadian leftists] You know why they're poor? Lack of money. Groups that get money tend to get along with other groups that got money. Those groups tend not to indulge in the semi socialist..."power to the people" ethic that has damaged my own carreer in this trade.
Selling out to the commercial interests on this is what the routine entails. To not sell out makes it 100 times more difficult.
But... There will be training...it will be village oriented and it will underscore capacity building and organization among fisherman. How, when and where is not for world wide consumption yet.
When it is, you'll all know.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

If importers don't give a sh***, why retailers support them? Is because retailers do not give a sh**?

I am not naive, Im just telling, all of you, that if this industry wants to see reform importers and retailers have to get involved. If a representative number of members of the industry doesn't show signs of real reform is going to be the time for radical groups as Green Peace to get involved.

10% increase ... please be serious! 10% of close to nothing is nothing!

This is the last chance this industry has. If they do not take advantage of it they'll go out of business sooner than you think..

I'm not the one going to PTFEA to tell them to pay more to the collectors. It is the task of the importers in the states to stop complaining because of price increase.

Mary,

With all the respect.

We, Haribon and OVI as NGOs, do see things in a different way. When we work at community level, we see many things that importers, retailers and hobbyists overseas can not imagine:

We see poverty at fisherfolks villages.

We see how fisherfolks they DO risk their lives, when diving, to satisfy the industry's demand.

We see the equipment they use to dive and the health hazards due to unfiltered air they inhale.

We see how collectors they do leave their families for extended periods of time to go fishing further and further away in dangerous seas because the grounds they used to fish before are empty, no fish (overexploitation and cyanide use).

We see coral reef destruction, we see that all this is happening (in part) because of the impact of this industry.

Collectors have been doing this for decades. We see how collectors have been ignored and exploited.

Do you agree with the actual industry set up, regarding fish prices, in the Philippines?

Are you saying that collectors shouldn't get a decent price for their fish today, and that they must keep pressure on the reefs to collect enough cheap fish to assure them of enough earnings to provide for the family subsistence?



Jaime

 

[JennM]

Pay me 6 figures and I'll gladly work 12-14 hour days. I could use the money...and the rest!!

Amen!

 

[Anonymous]

Lee

which do you think is worse(or mebbe they're the same?)

a person who kills animals, knows it, admits it, and isn't bothered by it that much?

or a person who 'pretends' to have a care for them and then kills them out of self imposed ignorance as to the animal's needs?



you are what you do :wink:

 

[mkirda]

How do we pass an extra .30 down at the collector level only?

NS

With all due respect, Nancy, the only way I can think of doing this would be to stand in front of Marivi's vehicle exit, flag down all collectors leaving, ask politely to see how much Marivi gave them, then hand them over that same amount of pesos from your own pockets. That would double their income without effecting the price of the fish.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Nancy Swart]

With all due respect, Nancy, the only way I can think of doing this would be to stand in front of Marivi's vehicle exit, flag down all collectors leaving, ask politely to see how much Marivi gave them, then hand them over that same amount of pesos from your own pockets. That would double their income without effecting the price of the fish.

Your're probably right, Mike. It's just sad that we can't do something to help these folks.

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

If importers don't give a sh***, why retailers support them? Is because retailers do not give a sh**?

Ding, Ding, Ding! Jaime gets the prize...

10% increase ... please be serious! 10% of close to nothing is nothing!

No, Jaime, it is not zero plus 10%... It is something plus 10%. It is the difference between getting a chicken this week or not. You've seen the poverty, have been there, and know this to be true.

I'm not the one going to PTFEA to tell them to pay more to the collectors. It is the task of the importers in the states to stop complaining because of price increase.

Jaime, again, you are making really horrible assumptions in your arguments.

Let's put things into simpler terms so that everyone here can understand them in Western terms. You want T-shirts. Plain ol' white t-shirts. You expect to pay $2 each for them just about anywhere.

Today you walk into JC Penney (Pick your favorite retail store, name does not matter...). You walk in expecting to pick up a whole bunch of T-shirts today because your cat attacked all your existing T-shirts and they are in tatters. You need 50 new ones... You get to the T-shirt aisle and notice that... Hey, The T-shirts are now $2.40 instead of $2.00. (Or to use your example, they are now $10 instead of $2...) You realize suddenly that these T-shirts are now way expensive, and that you do not have enough money in your wallet to buy all the T-shirts you need...

You freeze. Then suddenly, it dawns on you... Gee, there is a Target next door to here... I wonder what they are charging... You walk on over to Target and find out that those nice comfortable Hanes T-shirts you wanted at $2.00 are selling for $1.99, right where you thought that they should be.
You buy all fifty, thankful in knowing that you have a choice in places to shop...

To bring it all on back home, if the Philippines unilaterally raised the prices of its fish by 100%, the US importers would go shopping elsewhere, namely Indonesia.

Guess what happens now to all those PI villages who pinned their economic hopes on MO collection? They have nowhere now to sell their fish, Jaime. Your analysis assumes that the US importers have nowhere else to shop when, in fact, they do.

We, Haribon and OVI as NGOs, do see things in a different way. When we work at community level, we see many things that importers, retailers and hobbyists overseas can not imagine:

We see poverty at fisherfolks villages.

We see how fisherfolks they DO risk their lives, when diving, to satisfy the industry's demand.

We see the equipment they use to dive and the health hazards due to unfiltered air they inhale.

We see how collectors they do leave their families for extended periods of time to go fishing further and further away in dangerous seas because the grounds they used to fish before are empty, no fish (overexploitation and cyanide use).

We see coral reef destruction, we see that all this is happening (in part) because of the impact of this industry.

Collectors have been doing this for decades. We see how collectors have been ignored and exploited.

Do you agree with the actual industry set up, regarding fish prices, in the Philippines?

Of course not.

Are you saying that collectors shouldn't get a decent price for their fish today, and that they must keep pressure on the reefs to collect enough cheap fish to assure them of enough earnings to provide for the family subsistence?

Um, what ever on earth would give you this idea, Jaime?

The PTFEA has a published recommended buying price list for its members. Lolita negotiated a higher price for the MAC folks, which is roughly 25% higher than the published price, after she subsidizes the freight. According to my sources, at least two other net-caught only exporters pay their net-caught fishermen over and above this pricing level.

The fishermen getting this increased pricing are happy.
Roger Hernandez was finally able to afford new material for his leaking roof. Many other collectors in Palauig are finally able to start building homes, out of cement block instead of bamboo. They are getting more to eat, and better food as well. These changes are happening now, because of the efforts of a very few people who are not involved with any NGOs, but are concerned with getting the industry to change from within.

And all of this from starting with a 10% pricing increase...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

Jaime,

Please read my posts. I am not at all against giving the divers whatever they deserve- AS LONG AS IT IS IN A FAIR AND COMPETITIVE MARKETPLACE. That marketplace does not exist right now. I can tell Marivi right now that I want to pay the collectors 200% more and that I'll do it out of my own pocket. I will receive one shipment, and here's what it will consist of: A very low variety and availability of net caught fish that I could hardly sell before, but now they cost even more so I sell none. I'm not running a fish charity business. If I'm making no money on fish, then I go back to selling corals only and the divers get ZERO% from me because I can't afford to carry their fish. I have no doubt that you understand the villages, fisherfolk, etc... What I'm telling you is that you don't understand how this industry operates. It's not as easy as having the reformers set a good example by paying the divers more and the rest will follow. If anyone paid any attention to our example we wouldn't have a problem!!!

 

[MaryHM]

AMEN MIKE KIRDA!! You know, for a simple minded plain old hobbyist type, you ain't so bad.

 

[flameangel1]

And while the LFS usually has a 300% markup, his profit margin is probably the lowest in the chain due to overhead and losses.

Who gets 300% profit ??????????
I sure dont and never have-but, yes, the overhead is very high, ( my loss rate is very low ) and profit margin--hmmm, service people on here are the ones who have profit margins..
omg, if it was true that we LFS make so much money-- then why have so many given up or gone out of business ???

I do not mind if the price for each fish goes up-- this is a LUXURY hobby- not a necessity--and it is about time that the "poor hobbyist" realizes this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mkirda]

AMEN MIKE KIRDA!!

Mary,

It isn't like Jaime and my thinking are all that far off or far apart, actually.
We both seriously want justice for the collectors.

Every once in a while, I read a paper and I get an 'Ah-ha!' moment. Usually, the paper just puts clarity of purpose into what was before just a bunch of jumbled-together ideas, giving them form and structure. Oftentimes, the paper isn't even on the same subject, so go figure...

Jaime and I both want the same thing.
Where we differ is merely on how we get there.

I personally feel that Jaime's directions, although noble and well intentioned, are a recipe doomed to failure. The approach is one tried and proven to fail economically.

We could talk about the US garment industry. What US garment industry, you ask? Exactly my point, it barely exists anymore because of the costs of doing business here. If we closed our borders to imports of cotton, cotton fabric, cut or assembled fabric, and had to produce everything domestically, T-shirts would cost $50 US. Instead, we import some cheaper cotton. We import fabric. We import T-shirts. The cost for us is little, maybe $2-3 US instead. This is the benefit of international trade.
The garment industry has been really hard on people. When one country starts to bring themselves up, their prices go up, and guess what? The US buyers try another source, this time Bangladesh instead of India... Next time might be Columbia, or Brazil. The shifts can be sudden and devastating for a country that invests too much in any one industry.

The trick here is to not have the US switch countries, but add value to the product while increasing the prices slowly. Quality goes up, prices remains fairly steady (although increasing), and the incentive to switch does not come up. This is the approach I (and a lot of others on this board) advocate. It works.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

It's Sunday, so I'll give you one more "AMEN, BROTHER!"

As I was saying earlier, the problem with the way NGO's try to tackle some of the problems is not in a very realistic way because of their lack of knowledge about how the industry works. There are multiple ways to skin a cat. We have to focus on the ways that are realistic and more likely to give us the desired effect.

 

[devils advocate]

Mary you said it...there are multiple ways to skin a cat. What is realistic to you or Steve may not be realistic to some other person in the industry. Every person posting on this thread seems to want the same thing but egos, personalities, and idealisms are part of the reason why the wheels on the bus have been goin' 'round for a long time (and it appears will keep goin' 'round for time to come.

DA

 

[PeterIMA]

This discussion is interesting. Ultimately, the solution to the problems being debated about net-caught versus cyanide-caught revolve around pricing at each step of the chain from the collectors through the middlemen, exporters, importers, wholesalers, and retailers. They all need to make a proft. Selling prices have been cut through cut-throat competition. What most have not done is to run spread sheets and do economic analyses for each step of the chain factoring in the mortality and all of the costs of doing business (such as overhead, heating, light, staff salaries, duties, taxes etc). It is not unreasonable to have a 100% markup at each step of the chain because of these factors.

What is needed is either a) cyanide fishing is stopped by enforcement of laws in the host countries or laws in the importing countries, and/or b) the trade changes through economic incentives or disincentives.

My data indicates that with cyanide-caught fish there is on average 50% mortality on the reef of fishes exposed to cyanide. The reefs die and are no longer productive. Cyanide is non-selective. Hence, many species are killed to supply the ones in demand by the trade. The fishermen destroy the habitat which affects the ability of the reefs to sustain living organisms exploited by other fishermen (such as food fish). With nets, the collector can select the desired species and let the others go. This benefits the fishermen and the coral reefs.

The mortality at each step of the chain is on average 30% with cyanide-caught fish. The mortality at each step of the chain with net-caught fish is 3-5% provided the fish are properly handled and acclimated. There are economies of scale that still have not kicked in with the suppliers of net-caught fish as Mary has described.

I personally believe that we are witnessing some of the aspects that Steve Robinson has described. The collectors are organizing themselves to better dictate the prices they receive from the exporters. There has been enough training for net-collectors for them to have barganing power with exporters (if they stay united).

The exporters need to receive quality net-caught fish (fish that are not stressed by poor handling) before they can justify paying more for net-caught fish. The same applies to the importers and the wholesalers. They will continue to low-ball what they will pay so long as the fish die (irrespective of whether the cause was cyanide, ammonia, or stress related). They factor in their losses as another cost of doing business. I am convinced that this can change and is changing.

A critical issue is the prices charged by the exporters for their fish. Assuming their other costs stay the same (e.g., for air freight, brokers, airline rebates) the export costs of net-caught fish should be about the same as what the exporters charge for cyanided fish. I believe it is possible for the exporter to make a profit from net-caught fish because of the reduction in mortality (from 30% to about 5%) at the export level. Likewise the collector should be able to reduce the mortality at the village level by about the same percentages. If more fish live the export prices do not need to be higher on net-caught fish. At present they are higher priced because of poor handling in export facilities and because of the higher costs for the smaller businesses (economies of scale).

One net-caught exporter in the Philippines has invested heavily in superior filtration systems and apparently is making a profit off of net-caught fish. He also has a business in the USA and is selling to a major retail chain. So, he has an advantage over the other net-caught exporters who lack vertical integration. Several of the larger exporters of cyanide-caught fish also are vertically integrated in both the export and importing countries.

Another reason why I believe that the exporters can afford to pay more for net-caught fish (and possibly even cyanide-caught fish) is because of changes in the exchange rate between the US dollar and the Philippine peso. The peso has been devalued by about 40% since 1998. It was around 30 pesos to the US dollar and now is over 50 pesos to the US dollar. The PFTEA appears to be unwilling to pass a share of this windfall along to the collectors. So, the PFTEA is still financially exploiting the net-collectors (despite their willingness to pay 10% more to MAC certified collectors and 50% of the freight from the villages to Manila).

It is difficult to obtain accurate information on the costs and markups involved. However, I believe that reform of the pricing structure is essential and that profitability does not need to change. Indeed it may improve with net-caught marine aquarium fish. The MAC could play a positive role in effecting these changes through its certification program by negotiating changes in the pricing paid to the collectors. This would provide the economic incentives needed to get collectors using nets and to stop backsliding to the use of cyanide.

Cyanide testing to enforce laws against cyanide fishing can also be the stick that forces change. Basically, I feel there needs to be cyanide testing at both the exporting and importing levels to force change and to give those trying to do it right an advantage. Cyanide fishing needs to become economically disadvantagous while fishing with barrier and hand nets becomes more economically advantageous. As reefs recover because cyanide fishing has stopped, the fish supply will also increase. Collectors will then not have to travel so far to collect fish.

There will be growing pains to effect these changes. I am optimistic that with growing awareness of the situation and a growing willingness to change, that the industry can reform itself to the benefit of the coral reefs, the collectors, and everyone else involved in the trade.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec